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Greg,
I was referring to the well documented deaths, which have been =
publicized on this and other lists, over the last 2 years. I happen to =
be very familiar with several of these cases and well informed with =
respect to others in much the same way that you have shared your opinion =
on the deaths at Madison Blue Springs. You will note that I have not =
commented on this tragedy inasmuch as I am not informed regarding the =
specific details. Unlike a lot of people my memory of the personal side =
of these tragedies is not in a perpetual state of erasure.
You are very cute when you make remarks like=20
"Also if you feel that bungee wings are dangerous would there not be a =
large percentage of the bungee wing wearing crowd dropping dead? "
Well Greg, do people who use cell phones have a higher incidence of =
brain tumors or do people with brain tumors tend to like to use cell =
phones?=20
Michael Elkins did not just drop dead. He dropped to the bottom in =
250fsw offshore West Palm Beach, while wearing a wet suit and steel back =
tanks and stage bottles. He was low on gas and his bungee wings did not =
inflate. Because he was low on gas or as a result of the stress of his =
situation he was unable to inflate these wings manaully or orally. His =
body has never been recovered.
Are you aware of the amount of static lung loading required to inflate a =
constrained gas bladder? Completely aside from the streamlining issue, =
do you think that is a wise design feature to constrain the inflation =
system on a buoyancy compensator?
Neither did Jane Orenstein simply drop dead. She also dropped to 270fsw =
after having breathed the wrong deco gas during an "introductory" =
training session (the high oxygen was on the right side - that should be =
obvious right? Especially since there were no easily visble bottle =
markings) while her instructor watched her. When George Irvine, Dan =
Volker and Robert Carmichael recovered her body she had her hand locked =
around the inflator of her bungee wings. They were not inflated, =
needless to say.
Maybe Charlie McGurr just dropped dead and nobody knows what killed him =
because his buddies, who should have been there to be his last
chance, were making sure that they got their money's worth out of their =
precious little charter. Instead of accompanying Charlie to the surface
they chose to leave him at the worst possible moment of his crisis. Are =
people who solo dive just dropping deaed like flies? It's hard to say =
Greg, when there is nobody around, kind of like the tree falling in the =
forest, to determine what happened.
And then there was James Hendersen. Who was found dead in Devils Eye =
with both knobs bent off right near the main line and not far from the =
exit. Jim was an highly experienced ex fighter pilot and was also a =
airline pilot. Gee, what a waste. He could have waited for someone to =
dive with him.
Oh, Greg, you surely surely haven't forgotten about Tony Smith. A real =
nice guy with a lot of friends and a very experienced diver. He was =
effectively solo when he jumped off the back of a dive boat with his air =
off, grossly overweighted, and unfortunately, by himself. In his case =
the bungy wings weren't at fault because there was no gas available to =
inflate them. His buddies saved him, his deadbody that is, after they =
had completed their dive and realized he wasn't around.
And last but not least, you just had to take a cheap shot as us on the =
issue of the USDCT finding broken lines at Wakulla. The broken lines =
these guys found were their own mess that their project had installed =
years prior and we had left in place. You should be real proud that =
they followed your recommendation and ran more line over the existing =
lines. A propos of nothing, Henry Kendall was "solo diving" a Mk Cis =
Lunar rebreather in Wakulla springs under the aegis of the USDCT when =
"natural causes" overcame him and he was found face down on the bottom =
of the spring.=20
Greg, do you have any idea how disconcerting it is to be scootering =
along along the line in a low visibility cave and suddenly find yourself =
off on another line? It sounds to me that you need to come down here and =
tell us all how the cow ate the cabbage.
Best regards,
Bill Mee
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Kuiper, Greg <GregKuiper@pa*.co*>
To: 'techdiver@aquanaut.com' <techdiver@aquanaut.com>
Date: Friday, October 22, 1999 9:51 PM
Subject: RE: controlling manners on channel
=20
=20
Bill Mee,=20
In your email you claim that all the bodies you have pulled up have =
died as a result of the following: "lack of bottle markings, =
overweighting, deep air, failed bungee wings or solo diving." Can you =
please tell me which bodies lacked the bottle markings, whose bungie =
wings failed, who you recovered that was solo diving and who was =
overweighted. =20
In particular I am curious which agencies you claim promote the =
following concepts:=20
Overweighting,=20
lack of bottle markings,=20
solo diving.=20
Also if you feel that bungee wings are dangerous would there not be =
a large percentage of the bungee wing wearing crowd dropping dead? You =
may think this a stupid question, but with your comments about them =
being so dangerous I am curious as to why. I agree with you that they =
are not streamlined, but if they are responsible for lots of deaths =
please inform the list as to which deaths they are responsible for.
I would also be interested in why you would tell someone on the list =
not to listen to my opinion.=20
And finally how many bodies have you pulled up?=20
This email is not meant to inflame or enrage you. I am just curious =
as to what support you have for the previously metioned quote.
=20
=20
Thanks,=20
Greg Kuiper=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: Bill Mee [mailto:wwm@sa*.ne*]=20
Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:42 PM=20
To: Anthony Appleyard=20
Cc: kirvine@sa*.ne*; techdiver@aquanaut.com; Jim Cobb; bdi;=20
john.r.strohm@BI*.co*; Jr."=20
Subject: Re: controlling manners on channel=20
=20
=20
=20
Anthony,=20
There is nothing funny or polite when you recover the body of =
someone=20
partially eaten by crabs or bloated beyond recogntion or foaming and =
bleeding at the mouth and ears after having been hauled up from 50 =
fathoms.=20
It is even less funny when you find that the direct or indirect =
cause of=20
death was some idiocy such as lack of bottle marking, overweighting, =
deep=20
air, failed bungee wings or solo diving or some other inexcusable =
nonsense.=20
When you see that such practices are either taught by or endorsed by =
technical dive agencies or rogue dive instructors you become even =
more=20
incensed.=20
There is no language or manners foul enough to convey my displeasure =
with=20
those who encourage and promote practices which lead to death and =
misery.=20
Don't you think for one moment that the relatives of these dead =
people=20
simply forget about them in the same way that the "list" forgets =
their names=20
and their lives.=20
Before you go agreeing with the Dave Suttons, Kevin Flynns, Gregg =
Kuipers=20
and other offended people of the techno dive world with engorged =
"killfiles"=20
you stop and ask yourself if you would rather that you have someone =
such as=20
George Irvine speak out on your dead behalf or you would prefer =
some lame=20
and pathetic eulogy to the effect that "Why Anthony was a charming =
lad who=20
died happily while doing what he enjoyed most".=20
The fact is that George's so called "manners" get your attention and =
those=20
of the others in much the same way as good car wreck stops traffic, =
all the=20
while everyone complains about the traffic delay, but they rubber =
neck and=20
gawk anyway. Maybe when they observe the tragedy they are more =
careful=20
next time around.=20
And then I have ask myself, what sort of "tough guy" who really go =
and jumps=20
off the back of a pitching dive boat into 50 fathoms of dark water =
is=20
offended by some internet hyperbole. When I listen to some of the =
"epistles=20
of the offended" , which by the way have been pretty consistent over =
the=20
years in terms of complaint content, I am stunned by the pompous =
indignance=20
of the outraged. They rarely address the underlying issues, but =
instead=20
argue with the nature of the message delivery. Why don't these guys =
ask=20
themselves and others why Irvine is attacking some perceived =
stupidity?=20
Instead it is alway something like "he called the training agency =
which said=20
it was ok to breath from unmarked bottles dumbfucks" or he said =
that "the=20
accident scene was like an evidence table at a stupidity =
investigation" or=20
"they should provide free shovels with Inspriation Rebreathers" or I =
could=20
go on and on. I would rather that they take the same time that they =
invested in the little public complaints to write out the names, =
published=20
on this list, of the people who died in the last two years while in =
engaged=20
in some form of technical diving, where the cause of death was =
preventable.=20
If you or anyone can't figure out why Irvine is apoplectically =
pissed off,=20
and instead get your panties in a wad, then feel free to email me =
privately=20
and I will be happy to explain to you quite civilly the genesis of =
the=20
problem. Or of course, you can do as John Strohm does and simply ask =
Irvine=20
politely and privately and you will receive a very rational, =
articulate,=20
deferential and polite answer.=20
Best wishes,=20
Bill Mee=20
-----Original Message-----=20
From: Anthony Appleyard <mclssaa2@fs*.mt*.um*.ac*.uk*>=20
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com <techdiver@aquanaut.com>=20
Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:48 AM=20
Subject: controlling manners on channel=20
=20
=20
Someone wrote:-=20
> Irvine quickly got added to my killfile, and it=20
> amazes me why anyone listens to his drivel.=20
john.r.strohm@BI*.co* replied (Subject: Re: A question about who =
is the=20
mouth):-=20
> Well, I'll tell you, Dave. I listen to George because he and his =
team=20
have=20
> done some absolutely incredible things, with a safety record that =
is=20
> several orders of magnitude better than anyone else. ...=20
There are these two sorts of things that people may object to on =
channel:-=20
(A) If in some matter of diving, I say that X=3D2, and Irvine says =
that X=3D3,=20
then each may say that the other's opinion is drivel, but they are =
both=20
reasoned statements and have a right to be heard, whether each is =
right or=20
wrong. I know it's annoying if the two persist in differing, but =
that's=20
life.=20
(B) Abuse and bad language, such as one recent message that =
contained 2=20
screenfuls of lavatory-mouthing in uppercase, I pity any women on =
channel=20
who=20
must wade through that sort of stuff. To me, it isn't just the=20
offensiveness,=20
but the bulk for me to wade through before I start work in the =
mornings:=20
e.g.=20
today half of my incoming email was the "A question about who is the =
mouth"=20
thread. Does "a stroke" as often used on this list as an accusation =
mean=20
"someone who strokes his own ego"? If not, what?, so we know what we =
are=20
talking about. Who on this list has heard of netiquette?=20
PLEASE why can't this list temporarily have a moderator until =
peoples'=20
manners and tempers simmer down? Reiteration and bad language don't =
get=20
through on email groups as Tolklang and Virus-L that have a =
moderator.=20
=
......................................................................=20
Anthony Appleyard, http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk (sci-fi =
stories, 3D=20
graphics, software)=20
--=20
Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to =
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.=20
Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to =
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.=20
=20
=20
--=20
Send mail for the `techdiver' mailing list to =
`techdiver@aquanaut.com'.=20
Send subscribe/unsubscribe requests to =
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.=20
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>RE: controlling manners on =
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<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Greg,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>I was referring to the well documented deaths, which =
have=20
been publicized on this and other lists, over the last 2 years. I =
happen=20
to be very familiar with several of these cases and well informed with =
respect=20
to others in much the same way that you have shared your opinion on the =
deaths=20
at Madison Blue Springs. You will note that I have not commented =
on this=20
tragedy inasmuch as I am not informed regarding the specific details. =
Unlike a=20
lot of people my memory of the personal side of these tragedies is not =
in a=20
perpetual state of erasure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>You are very cute when you make remarks like =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>"Also if you feel that bungee wings are =
dangerous would=20
there not be a large percentage of the bungee wing wearing crowd =
dropping=20
dead? "</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Well Greg, do people who use cell phones have a =
higher=20
incidence of brain tumors or do people with brain tumors tend to like to =
use=20
cell phones? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Michael Elkins did not just drop dead. He dropped to =
the=20
bottom in 250fsw offshore West Palm Beach, while wearing a wet suit and =
steel=20
back tanks and stage bottles. He was low on gas and his bungee wings did =
not=20
inflate. Because he was low on gas or as a result of the stress of his =
situation=20
he was unable to inflate these wings manaully or orally. His body has =
never been=20
recovered.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Are you aware of the amount of static lung loading =
required to=20
inflate a constrained gas bladder? Completely aside from the =
streamlining=20
issue, do you think that is a wise design feature to constrain the =
inflation=20
system on a buoyancy compensator?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>Neither did Jane Orenstein simply drop dead. She =
also dropped=20
to 270fsw after having breathed the wrong deco gas during an=20
"introductory" training session (the high oxygen was on the =
right side=20
- that should be obvious right? Especially since there were no easily =
visble=20
bottle markings) while her instructor watched her. When George =
Irvine, Dan=20
Volker and Robert Carmichael recovered her body she had her hand locked =
around=20
the inflator of her bungee wings. They were not inflated, needless to=20
say.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>Maybe Charlie McGurr just dropped dead and nobody knows what killed =
him=20
because his buddies, who should have been there to be his =
last<BR>chance, were=20
making sure that they got their money's worth out of their precious =
little=20
charter. Instead of accompanying Charlie to the surface<BR>they =
chose to=20
leave him at the worst possible moment of his crisis. Are people =
who solo=20
dive just dropping deaed like flies? It's hard to say Greg, when there =
is nobody=20
around, kind of like the tree falling in the forest, to determine what=20
happened.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And then there was James Hendersen. Who was found dead in Devils =
Eye with=20
both knobs bent off right near the main line and not far from the exit. =
Jim was=20
an highly experienced ex fighter pilot and was also a airline =
pilot. Gee,=20
what a waste. He could have waited for someone to dive with him.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Oh, Greg, you surely surely haven't forgotten about Tony Smith. A =
real nice=20
guy with a lot of friends and a very experienced diver. He was =
effectively solo=20
when he jumped off the back of a dive boat with his air off, grossly=20
overweighted, and unfortunately, by himself. In his case the bungy =
wings=20
weren't at fault because there was no gas available to inflate them. His =
buddies=20
saved him, his deadbody that is, after they had completed their dive and =
realized he wasn't around.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And last but not least, you just had to take a cheap shot as us on =
the=20
issue of the USDCT finding broken lines at Wakulla. The broken lines =
these guys=20
found were their own mess that their project had installed years prior =
and we=20
had left in place. You should be real proud that they followed =
your=20
recommendation and ran more line over the existing lines. A propos of =
nothing,=20
Henry Kendall was "solo diving" a Mk Cis Lunar rebreather in =
Wakulla=20
springs under the aegis of the USDCT when "natural causes" =
overcame=20
him and he was found face down on the bottom of the spring. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Greg, do you have any idea how disconcerting it is to be scootering =
along=20
along the line in a low visibility cave and suddenly find yourself off =
on=20
another line? It sounds to me that you need to come down here and tell =
us all=20
how the cow ate the cabbage.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Best regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Bill Mee</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2><B></B></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial
size=3D2><B></B></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
</B>Kuiper, Greg <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:GregKuiper@pa*.co*">GregKuiper@pacific-data.com</=
A>><BR><B>To:=20
</B><A =
href=3D"mailto:'techdiver@aquanaut.com'">'techdiver@aquanaut.com'</A>=20
<<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A>><BR>=
<B>Date:=20
</B>Friday, October 22, 1999 9:51 PM<BR><B>Subject: </B>RE: =
controlling=20
manners on channel<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bill Mee,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>In your email you claim that all the bodies you =
have pulled=20
up have died as a result of the following: "lack of =
bottle=20
markings, overweighting, deep air, failed bungee wings or solo=20
diving." Can you please tell me which bodies lacked the =
bottle=20
markings, whose bungie wings failed, who you recovered that =
was solo=20
diving and who was overweighted. </FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>In particular I am curious which agencies you =
claim promote=20
the following concepts:</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>Overweighting,</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>lack of bottle markings,</FONT> <BR><FONT
=
size=3D2>solo=20
diving.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Also if you feel that bungee wings are dangerous =
would there=20
not be a large percentage of the bungee wing wearing crowd dropping=20
dead? You may think this a stupid question, but with your =
comments=20
about them being so dangerous I am curious as to why. I agree =
with you=20
that they are not streamlined, but if they are responsible for lots =
of=20
deaths please inform the list as to which deaths they are =
responsible=20
for.</FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>I would also be interested in why you would tell =
someone on=20
the list not to listen to my opinion.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>And finally how many bodies have you pulled =
up?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>This email is not meant to inflame or enrage =
you. I am=20
just curious as to what support you have for the previously metioned =
quote.</FONT></P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Greg =
Kuiper</FONT>=20
</P><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
size=3D2>From:=20
Bill Mee [<A =
href=3D"mailto:wwm@sa*.ne*">mailto:wwm@safari.net</A>]</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Sent: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:42
PM</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>To: Anthony Appleyard</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Cc: =
kirvine@sa*.ne*;=20
techdiver@aquanaut.com; Jim Cobb; bdi;</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>john.r.strohm@BI*.co*; Jr."</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>Subject: Re:=20
controlling manners on channel</FONT> </P><BR><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Anthony,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>There is nothing funny or polite when you recover =
the body=20
of someone</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>partially eaten by crabs or =
bloated=20
beyond recogntion or foaming and</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=3D2>bleeding =
at the=20
mouth and ears after having been hauled up from 50 fathoms.</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>It is even less funny when you find that the direct or =
indirect cause=20
of</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>death was some idiocy such as lack of
=
bottle=20
marking, overweighting, deep</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>air, failed
=
bungee=20
wings or solo diving or some other inexcusable =
nonsense.</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>When you see that such practices are either =
taught by or=20
endorsed by</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>technical dive agencies or =
rogue dive=20
instructors you become even more</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>incensed.</FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>There is no language or manners foul enough to =
convey my=20
displeasure with</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>those who encourage and
=
promote=20
practices which lead to death and misery.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>Don't you=20
think for one moment that the relatives of these dead people</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>simply forget about them in the same way that the =
"list" forgets their names</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>and
=
their=20
lives.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Before you go agreeing with the Dave Suttons, =
Kevin Flynns,=20
Gregg Kuipers</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>and other offended people
of =
the=20
techno dive world with engorged "killfiles"</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>you stop and ask yourself if you would rather that you have =
someone=20
such as</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>George Irvine speak out on
=
your dead=20
behalf or you would prefer some lame</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>and
=
pathetic=20
eulogy to the effect that "Why Anthony was a charming lad =
who</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>died happily while doing what he enjoyed =
most".</FONT>=20
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>The fact is that George's so called =
"manners" get=20
your attention and those</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>of the others
in =
much the=20
same way as good car wreck stops traffic, all the</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>while everyone complains about the traffic delay, but they =
rubber=20
neck and</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>gawk anyway. Maybe =
when they=20
observe the tragedy they are more careful</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>next time=20
around.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>And then I have ask myself, what sort of =
"tough=20
guy" who really go and jumps</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>off
the =
back of a=20
pitching dive boat into 50 fathoms of dark water is</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
size=3D2>offended by some internet hyperbole. When I listen to =
some of=20
the "epistles</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>of the offended"
, =
which by=20
the way have been pretty consistent over the</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>years=20
in terms of complaint content, I am stunned by the pompous =
indignance</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>of the outraged. They rarely address the =
underlying=20
issues, but instead</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>argue with the
nature =
of the=20
message delivery. Why don't these guys ask</FONT>
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>themselves and others why Irvine is attacking some =
perceived=20
stupidity?</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Instead it is alway something
=
like=20
"he called the training agency which said</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>it=20
was ok to breath from unmarked bottles dumbfucks" or he =
said that=20
"the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>accident scene was like an =
evidence table=20
at a stupidity investigation" or</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>"they=20
should provide free shovels with Inspriation Rebreathers" or I=20
could</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>go on and on. I would rather that =
they take=20
the same time that they</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>invested
in =
the little=20
public complaints to write out the names, published</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
size=3D2>on this list, of the people who died in the last two years =
while in=20
engaged</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>in some form of technical
diving, =
where the=20
cause of death was preventable.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>If you or anyone can't figure out why Irvine is=20
apoplectically pissed off,</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>and instead
get =
your=20
panties in a wad, then feel free to email me privately</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>and I will be happy to explain to you quite civilly the =
genesis of=20
the</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>problem. Or of course, you can do as
=
John Strohm=20
does and simply ask Irvine</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>politely and =
privately=20
and you will receive a very rational, articulate,</FONT>
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>deferential and polite answer.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Best wishes,</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Bill Mee</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
size=3D2>From:=20
Anthony Appleyard <mclssaa2@fs*.mt*.um*.ac*.uk*></FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>To: techdiver@aquanaut.com =
<techdiver@aquanaut.com></FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 6:48 AM</FONT>
=
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>Subject: controlling manners on channel</FONT> </P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2> Someone wrote:-</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>> Irvine=20
quickly got added to my killfile, and it</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>> amazes=20
me why anyone listens to his drivel.</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> john.r.strohm@BI*.co* replied (Subject: Re: =
A=20
question about who is the</FONT> <BR><FONT
size=3D2>mouth):-</FONT> =
</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>> Well, I'll tell you, Dave. I listen to =
George=20
because he and his team</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>have</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>> done some absolutely incredible things, with a safety =
record=20
that is</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>> several orders of magnitude
=
better than=20
anyone else. ...</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> There are these two sorts of things that =
people may=20
object to on channel:-</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> (A) If in =
some matter=20
of diving, I say that X=3D2, and Irvine says that X=3D3,</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>then each may say that the other's opinion is drivel, but =
they are=20
both</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>reasoned statements and have a
right =
to be=20
heard, whether each is right or</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>wrong. I
=
know it's=20
annoying if the two persist in differing, but that's</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>life.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2> (B) Abuse and bad =
language, such=20
as one recent message that contained 2</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>screenfuls of=20
lavatory-mouthing in uppercase, I pity any women on channel</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>who</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>must wade through that sort
=
of stuff. To=20
me, it isn't just the</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>offensiveness,</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>but the bulk for me to wade through before I =
start work in=20
the mornings:</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>e.g.</FONT>
<BR><FONT =
size=3D2>today=20
half of my incoming email was the "A question about who is the=20
mouth"</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>thread. Does "a =
stroke" as=20
often used on this list as an accusation mean</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>"someone who strokes his own ego"? If not, what?, =
so we=20
know what we are</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>talking about. Who on =
this list has=20
heard of netiquette?</FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2> PLEASE why can't this list temporarily have =
a=20
moderator until peoples'</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>manners and =
tempers simmer=20
down? Reiteration and bad language don't get</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>through=20
on email groups as Tolklang and Virus-L that have a =
moderator.</FONT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2> =20
=
......................................................................</FO=
NT>=20
<BR><FONT size=3D2>Anthony Appleyard, <A=20
href=3D"http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.buckrogers.demon.co.uk</A> (sci-fi =
stories,=20
3D</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>graphics, software)</FONT>
<BR><FONT=20
size=3D2>--</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Send mail for the
`techdiver' =
mailing list=20
to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Send=20
subscribe/unsubscribe requests to =
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.</FONT>=20
</P><BR>
<P><FONT size=3D2>--</FONT> <BR><FONT size=3D2>Send mail for
the =
`techdiver'=20
mailing list to `techdiver@aquanaut.com'.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
size=3D2>Send=20
subscribe/unsubscribe requests to =
`techdiver-request@aquanaut.com'.</FONT>=20
</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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