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FWIW, I have done the last 3000 dives with a TLS350/ or a cf200x. Both =
have telescopic torso. I have never had trouble reaching any of my =
valves, or anything else, even when Ted Cole and Errol turned =
off/disconnected everything on our bodies during our two weeks of =
rebreather training. I survived four weeks of cave training with JJ and =
Co. not to mention all the training/work up dives with Brent and other =
wkpp guys. I have never had my long hose caught on the suit, never had =
trouble getting into or out of the suit because exhaust valve(and I =
prefere it on my shoulder rather than on the wrist). I wear a stock =
medium, w/large g400s=20
JJ, George, and the majority of the WKPP guys all use them. JJ sells =
them in his store, and he can offer any type of suit that he wants (I'm =
sure any company would love to have him endorsing their suit). If it's =
good enough for them, it's good enough for me. Best, bob =20
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Capt JT=20
To: techdiver@aquanaut.com=20
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:03 PM
Subject: drysuit answers
I have had a lot of emails over the drysuit statements. Below is =
compiled emails from the VBtech list over the drysuits. Hope this helps =
everyone with their questions.
The self donning with the telescoping torso causes to many air =
pockets and is only there because it is needed for you to get into the =
suit, it does not stretch. I do believe he said the TLS 350 also wears =
out extremely fast.
Andy's is making a DS that is much to what everyone really needs, =
self donning, stretchable, in a shell that is durable. Dave Dalton has =
one and so does Todd, but theirs have not had the upgrades of the new =
ones coming out, if I remember right.
I have a neoprene suit that is cheap one, but now that it has been =
down to 400ft a bunch of times it is a high dollar crushed neoprene ;-0 =
hopefully some of these others guys will answer about the suits, they =
were there just like me.
JT
JT,=20
I suspect you're referring to the DS2 from Andy's.... diaganol zipper =
entry... no telescopic body.... Like I dived with y'all last year? I'm =
curious as I don't recall ever hearing any of the GUE/WKPP folks mention =
anything other than DUI previously.=20
BD=20
The TLS 350 is similar to what Andy calls the "Ultra",=20
his lightest material. I (and Todd & Allyson) have=20
the "Extreme" which is the heavier grade that Andrew=20
likes (but not the cordura, the heaviest).
The biggest problem he mentioned with the DUI is that=20
when you reach for your valves, the cut of the suit=20
restricts your motion (same for the DUI=20
undergarments). He pointed out that Andy puts in=20
panels under the arms and in the crotch as opposed to=20
the "rag doll" design of the sleeves on the DUI & most=20
others. This gives better freedom of movement. He=20
also said that he got Andy to redesign his diagonal=20
zipper so it terminates above the waist and doesn't=20
fold when you bend. He prefers that (the new DS-2) to=20
the DS-3 that we have, due to flex of the zipper when=20
doing a valve drill.
BTW, Andrew is GUE, not (as far as I know) WKPP.
Dave Dalton
I have the DUI 450 and noticed the following things in the class-
-When the backplate is in the proper position the telescope flaps =
stick out=20
and catches your long hose and light cable. I was wearing my plate way =
too=20
low and the belt was holding the "skirt" in and never noticed it =
before. And=20
when you have the proper amount of air in the suit (i.e. practically =
none)=20
the suit does not telescope. I know, I have one.
-As JT mentioned the armpits are cut like they would be on a shirt or=20
jacket, there is not enough material to allow reaching your valves,=20
particularly with the thick cordura the 450 has.
-With the backplate adjusted correctly DUI puts the exhaust valve in =
exactly=20
the wrong position, it impedes the left strap from getting on/off your =
shoulder.
I suppose that DUI could add the material to the armpits to allow =
reaching=20
the valves, but this would mean dealing with DUI, and that would mean =
pretty=20
much not having a drysuit for a period of several months. But I =
suppose when=20
you are sending it back to get the various leaks fixed that DUI suits =
are=20
plagued with, you can have the mods done then.
From what I gathered the "dream suit" for DIR ocean divers would:=20
-Be of a stretchable fabric which does not absorb water like crushed=20
neoprene.
-Cut with panels in the armpits and crotch to allow reaching the =
valves.
-a diagonal self-donning zipper that does not go so low as to get =
stressed=20
when you bend over.
-Velcro seal bellows pockets on both sides cut so your hand can slip =
into=20
them without the top folding in, equipped with grommets for a belay =
line.
-An exhaust valve on the outside of the forearm rather than the=20
upper-outside of the arm.
-An inflate valve which has restricted air flow. This is for the event =
of a=20
stuck DS inflater valve or regulator and to keep you from putting too =
much=20
air in the DS to begin with.
-Hard boots with reinforcement where the top of the fin pocket rubs.
-P valve located on the leg more towards the inseam than sticking our =
front.
-Thinsulate underwear with stretchable panels in the armpits and =
crotch=20
(thinsulte does not stretch) or perhaps development of stretchable=20
thinsulate.
The goals are:=20
-To be able to reach your valves with no air in the suit.=20
-To be streamlined yet flexible.=20
-To be easily purgable in the correct (horizontal) position.=20
-To have large, easy access pockets on both sides.
Currently this suit does not exist. The folks with the cheapest DUI =
200=20
(i.e. The model without the telescope) seem to come closest to the =
ideal,=20
near as I can tell, if you get the purge valve in the right place and =
the=20
correct pockets installed. The Andy's have the crotch and armpit =
panels but=20
you have to have a fair amount of drag-producing trilam material to =
allow=20
you movement and their pockets suck.
But if I were about to drop 2 large on a drysuit I would try to find =
one=20
which incorporates as many of the above features as possible, with the =
number one priority of being able to reach your valves with no air in =
the=20
suit.
I may have missed something here or not interpreted correctly, gang =
please=20
correct me where I am wrong.
Jim Cobb
Andrew is not a supporter of DUI DS, his preference is Dive Concepts =
in=20
California and Andy's.=20
I have a DUI CF200 with the telescoping body. I asked him about the DS =
and=20
the only bad thing, which we all know, is the absorption of water and =
time=20
to dry. It does not develop the folds as the Trilamines do. It is more =
durable then the type trilamines. He stated that two divers, same =
setup and=20
scooters, the crashed neoprene will slowly walk away from the =
trilamine.
Crashed Neoprene down side again is weight and time to dry especially =
if you=20
are traveling.
The Andy's suit is, DS2 with the Ultra or Cordura. There a =
modification to=20
the DS2 zipper placement cutting higher on the body instead of the=20
traditional lower on the right side.
The important part to all this is movement or motion. As one raises =
the arm=20
in both the undergarment and DS w/undergarment, the restriction of the =
movement is the issue under the arm pit. That is wear the stretch =
points and=20
restriction in movement occurs. The ability to reach the valves. (See =
David=20
Dalton comment on the panel - important to relieve the restrict =
issue.)
Dive Concepts sound as if they are building a DS to order with =
important=20
mod's and improvement. Several reference to them but more the Andy's. =
I=20
think because he is on our coast and general neighborhood.
David Widen
Andrew really liked the Andy's suits. The only thing Allyson and I =
didn't get on ours was the new diagonal zipper that Andrew got Andy to =
add. Ours are the DS3s with the zipper that goes straight across the =
front.=20
The sleeve sort of telescopes over the seal so you don't put pressure =
on the wrist seal when you reach for your valves, etc. The material is =
heavier than the TLS 350, but it still is very flexible. It has a sort =
of panel built in under the arm that allows some stretch (same with the =
legs) and it comes stock with the SI Tek valves. It also has a nice slim =
boot (Andy calls it the tech boot) that fits perfectly into the XL =
Jetfins. There have been some complaints about the boots splitting after =
several hundred dives (Andrew does about 600 a year), but at least they =
fit the fins nicely. The suit is well made and has nice heavy duty latex =
seals.=20
Todd Claggett
I forgot to mention that the DS2 zipper that comes straight down is =
not the zipper that Andrew recommends. He has apparently gotten Andy to =
make one that curves at the bottom, sort of around the waist a bit =
instead of just straight. It takes the stress off of the zipper and =
makes it last longer.=20
Todd
I believe the key was that Andy's suits have a little extra material =
under the armpit to allow proper mobility i.e., reaching your valves and =
in the crotch area for proper kicking. The medium grade tri-lam is also =
a little more durable than the tls 350. Finally, the new model that =
Andrew called the 5th D spec. has a zipper that is self donning much =
like the tls 350, but instead of the zipper ending at the hip, it ends =
midway between the hip and shoulder. This puts less wear on the zipper =
when you bend over.
Tom Sawicki
"You can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get =
in the water"
Your Guide to Great Wreck Diving along the East Coast & more=20
Web Site http://www.capt-jt.com/
Email captjt@mi*.co*
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>FWIW, I have done the last 3000 dives =
with a=20
TLS350/ or a cf200x. Both have telescopic torso. I have =
never had=20
trouble reaching any of my valves, or anything else, even when Ted Cole =
and=20
Errol turned off/disconnected everything on our bodies during our =
two=20
weeks of rebreather training. I survived four weeks of cave =
training=20
with JJ and Co. not to mention all the training/work up dives with =
Brent=20
and other wkpp guys. I have never had my long hose caught on the =
suit,=20
never had trouble getting into or out of the suit because exhaust =
valve(and=20
I prefere it on my shoulder rather than on the wrist). I wear a =
stock=20
medium, w/large g400s </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2> JJ, George, and the majority of =
the WKPP=20
guys all use them. JJ sells them in his store, and he can offer =
any type=20
of suit that he wants (I'm sure any company would love to have him =
endorsing=20
their suit). If it's good enough for them, it's =
good enough=20
for me. Best, bob </FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcaptjt@mi*.co* =
href=3D"mailto:captjt@mi*.co*">Capt JT</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dtechdiver@aquanaut.com=20
href=3D"mailto:techdiver@aquanaut.com">techdiver@aquanaut.com</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 06, 2002
6:03 =
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> drysuit
answers</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I have had a lot of emails over the drysuit
statements. =
Below=20
is compiled emails from the VBtech list over the drysuits. Hope this =
helps=20
everyone with their questions.<BR><BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3D"" type=3D"cite">The self donning with the =
telescoping torso=20
causes to many air pockets and is only there because it is =
needed for=20
you to get into the suit, it does not stretch. I do believe he said =
the TLS=20
350 also wears out extremely fast.<BR><BR>Andy's is making a DS that =
is much=20
to what everyone really needs, self donning, stretchable, in a shell =
that is=20
durable. Dave Dalton has one and so does Todd, but theirs have not =
had the=20
upgrades of the new ones coming out, if I remember right.<BR><BR>I =
have a=20
neoprene suit that is cheap one, but now that it has been down to =
400ft a=20
bunch of times it is a high dollar crushed neoprene ;-0 =
hopefully some=20
of these others guys will answer about the suits, they were there =
just like=20
me.<BR><BR><BR><BR>JT</BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><FONT
face=3DVerdana =
color=3D#0000ff>JT,=20
<BR><BR>I suspect you're referring to the DS2 from Andy's.... diaganol =
zipper=20
entry... no telescopic body.... Like I dived with y'all last year? I'm =
curious=20
as I don't recall ever hearing any of the GUE/WKPP folks mention =
anything=20
other than DUI previously. <BR><BR>BD</FONT><FONT
face=3DVerdana>=20
<BR><BR></FONT>The TLS 350 is similar to what Andy calls the
"Ultra", =
<BR>his=20
lightest material. I (and Todd & Allyson) have <BR>the "Extreme" =
which is=20
the heavier grade that Andrew <BR>likes (but not the cordura, the=20
heaviest).<BR>The biggest problem he mentioned with the DUI is that =
<BR>when=20
you reach for your valves, the cut of the suit <BR>restricts your =
motion (same=20
for the DUI <BR>undergarments). He pointed out that Andy puts in =
<BR>panels=20
under the arms and in the crotch as opposed to <BR>the "rag doll" =
design of=20
the sleeves on the DUI & most <BR>others. This gives better =
freedom of=20
movement. He <BR>also said that he got Andy to redesign his diagonal=20
<BR>zipper so it terminates above the waist and doesn't <BR>fold when =
you=20
bend. He prefers that (the new DS-2) to <BR>the DS-3 that we have, due =
to flex=20
of the zipper when <BR>doing a valve drill.<BR>BTW, Andrew is GUE, not =
(as far=20
as I know) WKPP.<BR><BR>Dave Dalton<BR><BR>I have the DUI 450 and
=
noticed the=20
following things in the class-<BR>-When the backplate is in the proper =
position the telescope flaps stick out <BR>and catches your long hose =
and=20
light cable. I was wearing my plate way too <BR>low and the belt was =
holding=20
the "skirt" in and never noticed it before. And <BR>when you have the =
proper=20
amount of air in the suit (i.e. practically none) <BR>the suit does =
not=20
telescope. I know, I have one.<BR>-As JT mentioned the armpits are cut =
like=20
they would be on a shirt or <BR>jacket, there is not enough material =
to allow=20
reaching your valves, <BR>particularly with the thick cordura the 450=20
has.<BR>-With the backplate adjusted correctly DUI puts the exhaust =
valve in=20
exactly <BR>the wrong position, it impedes the left strap from getting =
on/off=20
your <BR>shoulder.<BR>I suppose that DUI could add the material to the =
armpits=20
to allow reaching <BR>the valves, but this would mean dealing with =
DUI, and=20
that would mean pretty <BR>much not having a drysuit for a period of =
several=20
months. But I suppose when <BR>you are sending it back to get the =
various=20
leaks fixed that DUI suits are <BR>plagued with, you can have the mods =
done=20
then.<BR>From what I gathered the "dream suit" for DIR ocean divers =
would:=20
<BR>-Be of a stretchable fabric which does not absorb water like =
crushed=20
<BR>neoprene.<BR>-Cut with panels in the armpits and crotch to allow =
reaching=20
the valves.<BR>-a diagonal self-donning zipper that does not go so low =
as to=20
get stressed <BR>when you bend over.<BR>-Velcro seal bellows pockets =
on both=20
sides cut so your hand can slip into <BR>them without the top folding =
in,=20
equipped with grommets for a belay line.<BR>-An exhaust valve on the =
outside=20
of the forearm rather than the <BR>upper-outside of the arm.<BR>-An =
inflate=20
valve which has restricted air flow. This is for the event of a =
<BR>stuck DS=20
inflater valve or regulator and to keep you from putting too much =
<BR>air in=20
the DS to begin with.<BR>-Hard boots with reinforcement where the top =
of the=20
fin pocket rubs.<BR>-P valve located on the leg more towards the =
inseam than=20
sticking our front.<BR>-Thinsulate underwear with stretchable panels =
in the=20
armpits and crotch <BR>(thinsulte does not stretch) or perhaps =
development of=20
stretchable <BR>thinsulate.<BR>The goals are: <BR>-To be able to
reach =
your=20
valves with no air in the suit. <BR>-To be streamlined yet flexible. =
<BR>-To=20
be easily purgable in the correct (horizontal) position. <BR>-To have =
large,=20
easy access pockets on both sides.<BR>Currently this suit does not =
exist. The=20
folks with the cheapest DUI 200 <BR>(i.e. The model without the =
telescope)=20
seem to come closest to the ideal, <BR>near as I can tell, if you get =
the=20
purge valve in the right place and the <BR>correct pockets installed. =
The=20
Andy's have the crotch and armpit panels but <BR>you have to have a =
fair=20
amount of drag-producing trilam material to allow <BR>you movement and =
their=20
pockets suck.<BR>But if I were about to drop 2 large on a drysuit I =
would try=20
to find one <BR>which incorporates as many of the above features as =
possible,=20
with the <BR>number one priority of being able to reach your valves =
with no=20
air in the <BR>suit.<BR>I may have missed something here or not =
interpreted=20
correctly, gang please <BR>correct me where I am wrong.<BR>Jim=20
Cobb<BR><BR>Andrew is not a supporter of DUI DS, his preference is =
Dive=20
Concepts in <BR>California and Andy's. <BR>I have a DUI CF200 with the =
telescoping body. I asked him about the DS and <BR>the only bad thing, =
which=20
we all know, is the absorption of water and time <BR>to dry. It does =
not=20
develop the folds as the Trilamines do. It is more <BR>durable then =
the type=20
trilamines. He stated that two divers, same setup and <BR>scooters, =
the=20
crashed neoprene will slowly walk away from the trilamine.<BR>Crashed =
Neoprene=20
down side again is weight and time to dry especially if you <BR>are=20
traveling.<BR>The Andy's suit is, DS2 with the Ultra or Cordura. There =
a=20
modification to <BR>the DS2 zipper placement cutting higher on the =
body=20
instead of the <BR>traditional lower on the right side.<BR>The =
important part=20
to all this is movement or motion. As one raises the arm <BR>in both =
the=20
undergarment and DS w/undergarment, the restriction of the =
<BR>movement is the=20
issue under the arm pit. That is wear the stretch points and =
<BR>restriction=20
in movement occurs. The ability to reach the valves. (See David =
<BR>Dalton=20
comment on the panel - important to relieve the restrict =
issue.)<BR>Dive=20
Concepts sound as if they are building a DS to order with important =
<BR>mod's=20
and improvement. Several reference to them but more the Andy's. I =
<BR>think=20
because he is on our coast and general neighborhood.<BR>David=20
Widen<BR><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>Andrew really liked the Andy's =
suits. The=20
only thing Allyson and I didn't get on ours was the new diagonal =
zipper that=20
Andrew got Andy to add. Ours are the DS3s with the zipper that goes =
straight=20
across the front.</FONT> <BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff>The sleeve sort
of =
telescopes=20
over the seal so you don't put pressure on the wrist seal when you =
reach for=20
your valves, etc. The material is heavier than the TLS 350, but it =
still is=20
very flexible. It has a sort of panel built in under the arm that =
allows some=20
stretch (same with the legs) and it comes stock with the SI Tek =
valves. It=20
also has a nice slim boot (Andy calls it the tech boot) that fits =
perfectly=20
into the XL Jetfins. There have been some complaints about the boots =
splitting=20
after several hundred dives (Andrew does about 600 a year), but at =
least they=20
fit the fins nicely. The suit is well made and has nice heavy duty =
latex=20
seals. <BR>Todd Claggett<BR><BR>I forgot to mention that the DS2 =
zipper that=20
comes straight down is not the zipper that Andrew recommends. He has=20
apparently gotten Andy to make one that curves at the bottom, sort of =
around=20
the waist a bit instead of just straight. It takes the stress off of =
the=20
zipper and makes it last longer.</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
color=3D#0000ff>Todd<BR><BR></FONT>I believe the key was that Andy's
=
suits have=20
a little extra material under the armpit to allow proper mobility =
i.e.,=20
reaching your valves and in the crotch area for proper kicking. The =
medium=20
grade tri-lam is also a little more durable than the tls 350. Finally, =
the new=20
model that Andrew called the 5th D spec. has a zipper that is self =
donning=20
much like the tls 350, but instead of the zipper ending at the hip, it =
ends=20
midway between the hip and shoulder. This puts less wear on the zipper =
when=20
you bend over.<BR>Tom =
Sawicki<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>"Yo
u=20
can't learn to dive on the net, sooner or later you have to get in the =
water"<BR><BR><FONT color=3D#0000ff><U>Your Guide to Great Wreck =
Diving along=20
the East Coast & more <BR> Web Site <A=20
href=3D"http://www.capt-jt.com/"=20
=
eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.capt-jt.com/</A><BR>Email =
=20
captjt@mi*.co*<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></U></BODY></HTML
>
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